Marketing Test = FAIL… (The people have spoken)
One of the more cool (or “PYMP”, if you prefer) side effects of being a Lone Wolf (instead of a CEO) is being able to be brutally honest about things when they get sideways.
This is one of those moments. There are likely to be more.
A Short Version of Historical Events Leading to Buggery
Pirate Dan Thies and I quietly started a new project called “Guru Therapy” (“GT” for short). GT was intended to be a super small group of already successful people (Six Figure Revenue and up) that meet regularly with Dan and I to optimize their business.
I’ve done two “GT Style” groups before – they were called Apprentice 1 and Apprentice 2, and for all intents and purposes, most of the members of those groups have gone on to be wildly successful. So, lets just call the whole GT/Master Mind concept a WIN.
Here’s where things get sideways...
When we presented our offer in a recent webinar, we got a huge response – but it was NOT the response I expected. Sure, a lot of people were excited about joining us, but a whole lot more of you were “peeved” that you could not.
We heard from a whole lot of people that “a six figure business” was setting the bar too high for them. We heard from some other folks that the price was too high, that they didn’t care to attend the live workshops, etc.
Okay, we heard you – and we’ve got a “Plan B” ready to go – actually, funny enough, this is what we planned to do AFTER the six month Guru Therapy coaching program was over.
In just a minute, I’ll explain what that is – and ask you for your TOTALLY CANDID feedback on the concept.
Now, back to where I screwed up. And BTW, this is a killer marketing and product launch lesson…
I started talking about GT about a month ago, but instead of using “Social Proof” from the successes of former members of the previous programs…
… I started releasing Mind Maps. Well…why the hell would I do that?
I get stuff done with Mind Maps. I learn with Mind Maps. Mind Maps make hard stuff “Mad Libs” simple. Seriously, forget about using them JUST to brainstorm – I like to MANAGE and EXECUTE from a mind map.
I’ve made mind maps for everything from “How to Write Email Subject Lines”, to “The Fastest Way to Make A Marketing Video”, to “Advanced SEO”. I even mind mapped my “Why I left StomperNet” blog post before I wrote a word down.
But in this case using Mind Maps as a PROMOTIONAL TOOL was a mistake, as it turns out.
The “Wheel”. You’re too late to invent it again. Besides, it was pretty good the first time.
I SHOULD have spent more time focusing on the Experience and RESULTS that a GT member would get once they joined the mastermind. Ya know, like the same way I’ve promoted EVERY OTHER PRODUCT – EVER. Uh, Hello?
Instead, I bombarded them with scary mind map visualizations of their business…
…which they ABSOLUTELY loved.
Huh?
Mmmm Yeah………….. in fact, according to my stats from Amazon S3, like 20,000 people have downloaded the mind maps and videos.
One guy took the first mind map, the “Mind Map of Ultimate Woe,” and decided to go right ahead 
and get to work on it. He actually printed it out and stuck it on the wall of his office – where it’s like 7 FEET TALL:
So, what in the HEYELL is goin’ on here?
“Clever” spelled backwards is “Moron”
When you do a product launch, what is supposed to happen is that you tell THE MARKET what you got, what it will do for them, what you want them to do. Then, they make a decision – Yes, or No.
So I thought I’d innovate on this launch. “Be clever.”
Don’t get me wrong, GT had an ass-kickin’ response. I’m pretty happy. There was enough pent-up demand for GT already ‘cause I haven’t done a mastermind group since 2005, and I’d get a “few” emails a week since then asking when the next one would kick off. And everyone LOVES Pirate Dan – which made him a Popular Feature.
But comparing the crowd’s response to GT to the enthusiasm to the mind maps?
It’s like a teeny weenie blip.
If you’re not careful, you’ll learn something every damn day
The lesson here is simple – Market the USERS END RESULT of your product. Show (NEVER just TELL – SHOW) the results in the environment in which they were achieved.
My mistake was SHOWING mind maps in the context of marketing a mastermind – it created a distraction, an “Ohhh look – a KITTY!” response.
Because now, I’ve got a Gmail-Inbox full of “I WANT YOUR MIND MAPS”.
And I’m beginning to think that THAT’S the way to go.
Oatmeal Marketing – a WIN if you’ve got the guts to listen
So, let me ask you for some feedback (If you’re not used to this, just play along for a bit):
To be frank, Dan and I have a decision to make. Either continue on with GT, or change GT into something vastly different.
Here’s what I was thinking:
What if Dan and I did something called “You Call The Shot” Training?
It would work like this:
At the beginning of every month, we’d have a list of a bunch of important tactics and strategy topics for Internet Marketing.
The members of this new program would VOTE for each topic. They’d rate their interest in the topic on a scale of 1 (for “DO NOT WANT”), 2 (for “Mild Interest”) or 3 (for “Do this or I will kill you”).
Then Dan and I add up the votes, and we’ll do a series of Mind Map Videos on the top 3 topics. And then, we’ll have a Wild Card for the 4th topic, which might be based on something like a “write in vote” from the members (You know, that thing you’ve wanted to do in every single presidential election since Lincoln…)
So 4 topics per month, and videos with downloadable mind maps for each topic.
And of course, there would be a discussion thread attached to each video that would let people ask questions, collaborate, suggest other ideas – that kinda social stuff.
So not only do you get the benefit of our considerable experience, you get to decide what you want us to teach first. The result is that you’ll be able to grow your business faster, because you call the shots. Get it?
I kinda dig the name “You Call The Shot” Training. I LOVE the idea of letting members vote on what they want to learn. So does Dan – he just thinks the name is LAME.
Whatever. You tell us, okay?
So that is the FIRST question I need you to answer – what do you think about that concept?
(Forget about the price for a second. GT was $2,000 a month but that’s not what we’re talking about here – I just want to get your feedback on the idea of the training and what you would learn.)
Next, Dan and I decided to make a mockery of the industry.
We want to make a special class of member called the “ULTIMATE XENON PLATNIUM INSIDER CLUB”, cause UXPIC sounds completely GANGSTER.
A UXPIC member would ALSO get to call in every other week to a Live Q&A session. So, if you need a little help with something that didn’t get covered in that week’s videos, or you need a little clarification before you take action, you got it.
The UXPIC’er can raise their hand, ask about pretty much anything, and they’d be talking directly to Dan and I. That’s the way to do it, in my humble opinion. Am I right?
One of the features of the Original GT that everyone universally LOVED was called “Look Over Andy’s Shoulder”.
Basically, I’d open up my launch diary for my next info product called “Video Triggers”.
That would mean me talking about everything I do to create and launch a product, and talk about it while it was happening – in Real Time. I’d do a report or update at the beginning or end of the Q&A calls.
Again, this is just a brain dump, but the topics would probably be something like:
- Outlining the Product (Yeah, I’d use a mind map for that)
- Creating the Product
- Creating the Marketing Elements, like:
- Copy
- Videos
- Swipe Files
- Sales Funnels
- Up sells (Maybe – to early to tell if there will be any)
- The techie stuff (The membership area, shopping cart, auto responder, etc)
- Working with the JVs
- Getting Traffic
Etc.
UXPIC would be a few bucks more, but then we got to thinking…
The NON-UXPIC members would probably like to LISTEN to the Q&A sessions. So, one of our ideas is to record those sessions, and make them available for playback later to all of the members.
Now, GT had some live events planned out – but I’m not sure if “The Peoplez” even like those anymore. So, make that a part of your opinion, please – if we had a live get together / workshop a few months in, would you be interested in going?
What do you think? I absolutely LOVE the idea of letting the members have a say in the training topics. One downside is that Dan and I would have to be creating the content in Real-Time. We’ll survive. But on the flip side, it would be super-current and up-to-date.
In terms of price, I was thinking of something less than a couple hundred per month. Of course, the UXPIC members would get to ask questions directly to Dan and I, so that level would be a little more. We’re looking into T-Shirts with a UXPIC Logo as well.
Lets’ review:
- You Call The Shot Training Videos
- 4 Topics per month
- Discussion Threads about the Videos
- Downloadable Mind Maps for Reference (You can use these as a check list, or give them to employees or sub-contractors)
- Downloadable Q&A Calls with the “Look Over Andy’s Shoulder Diary”
- Optional UXPIC Level Membership to attend the Q&A calls Live and “Ask DAndy” (heh)
The cost of GuruTherapy was $10,000 or $2,000 a month.
Like I said, I think this works well at less than a couple hundred a month for Members and a few bucks more for the “Ultimate Xenon Platinum Insiders’ Club” level.
Seriously, tell me what you think in the comments below. Dan and I can’t do both GT and whatever we’re calling this thing (could use a name, BTW) – so we have to decide fast.
Also, just wondering – is being exposed to this kind of insider thought process cool or is it totally ghetto?
Let us know in the comments – thanks!!
My vote goes for the “other” idea with the UXPIC upsell. Oh, and physical get togethers are still totally cool in my view. Especially if there’s a bar
Coolest would be both but i understand that could get a little too busy for ya! Now lets see what the dice says…
OMG – I LOVE your mind maps and would KILL to be in this new program. I had one of your mind maps for a sales funnel, and it pretty much doubled my conversion in 3 days.
You guys are just so cool – asking your subscribers what THEY want – I dont think thats ever happend. Kudos – your integrity continues to rise. The UXPIC sounds good to me!
THis is AWESOME – that you’d show us your successes and failures, that just means you guys will always succeed.
I think it is a fantasmagorical idea but am not sure that I can be a part of it at this stage.
This sounds like a great idea. I really want to see the process from the inside out. Especially from a couple of guys with a proven track record.
Sounds like a great idea… For People That Already Have a 6-Figure Business.
But for the majority of us poor working newbies with J-O-B-S…
Too techy and too expensive.
And NO, I’m not flying anywhere to go to a live event.
As for “You Call The Shot” Training?
GREAT Name. The concept sucks though.
A bunch of propeller heads calling the shots while probably more than
half of the people will be outvoted and NOT learn what they really want. Not cool.
Sorry to rain on your parade, but you asked for my opinion.
Carl Willoughby
http://StudentLoanDebtConsolidationSite.com
Stomper has given us some great information and freebies. The 30 day challenge was a great program. Dan’s 100 page ebook is another testimonial to the knowledge all you guys have. Our single most complex problem is getting to your level. WHy? We are wannabies, new at this game, inexperienced, still working for a living and trying to figure out where the hell to start. Then we get slammed with buy this and buy that along with the six figure clubs and monthly dues that far exceed most peoples income today.
Customers have to be cultivated. We need to grow, make a profit so we have money to spend on your programs. If we never really get to a level of profit that allows us to have the disposable income needed to spend on your programs then I think everyone is just spinning their wheels. Maybe you should just target the six figure market. I would love to get thins going but working full time and doing all my own research along with continuing education in the marketing area leaves me little time to get much accomplished. Lets not forget to include the constant emails from people trying to sell clickbank products that eats up our time. These people have good intentions but after you get on the mailing list, BAM, they start. In today’s economy everyone has to watch their spending. Thousands of jobs are still going to be eliminated.
I read many comments and most people are anxious to move forward to another level. Many need help to get there. My personal approach to this problem is to help those in need for a percentage of the sales. Everyone gets what they want.
Wow. Okay – since you laid it all out there, I’ll do the same thing with the feedback…
I was one of those genuinely interested in GuruTherapy. Specifically because of the 6-figure threshold. The idea of meeting 49 other people on my level, all working towards taking it to the next level were very appealing to me. Not to mention I just plain like being in the same room with that many other people that will spend $10k to do it.
There’s also the issue of timing. Perfect timing, that is.
Going into the 4th quarter of ’09, I’m trying to figure out where to stick some money – somewhere besides on a check to the IRS. Not that I don’t mind to pay my fair share of taxes mind you – but I’m looking into my options. And it was either GT or a SEP fund. I like the idea of investing more in my business NOW rather than in my retirement. So I was sold.
Then came the setback. And it was in your brilliant sales copy, which I read all the way through – twice. Mind you, I was pre-sold on the two points above already. The problem I came across was the lack of dates/times for the virtual meetings and the physical meet-ups.
What day of the week? And would you do it in the morning, or late at night? Also taking into consideration the time zones (I’m still over here on the East Coast)…
I should think that anyone at 6-figures & up would have a fairly structured business with a schedule in place. Thursdays are completely booked on my calendar for example – I do my business building webinars/podcasts those days, and don’t have enough brain power left to fully devote to something like GT. And it’s not something I can move.
I also have the month of January booked with two events, one of which I’m committed to speaking. And it occurred to me you may very well schedule the San Diego meet in January – or not.
So there’s my honest feedback on why I didn’t submit the app for GT. I was still hoping to get more detail – but then, found it here. I simply couldn’t invest the money if I didn’t know without a doubt that I could also invest the time to get an ROI on it.
I can’t imagine I was the only one with that concern, considering the market you were targeting. I have a heckuva lotta free time, but I do also have a schedule. I am guessing anyone with a ~6-fig biz does…
Best,
Lynn Terry
p.s. My feedback on this new idea is… it’s cool for everyone else.
Holy Moly…think you just got a new member in
Dave
Andy and Dan,
Enjoying watching the process!
Which one is best?
The one where you get the takers and it actually happens!
I’m sure you will make it happen, so I’m sure it will be great.
Hey Dan, I already invited Andy down to JVAL San Diego, so you might as well come too. Would love to see you again!
All the best,
Ken
The idea of having 4 topics covered each month, voted by the the people for the people sounds like a powerful idea.
We’ll be getting fresh up date concepts to help us take our business to the next level
love the mindmaps, you can never have to many
Cheers
Rowan Shead
Cashflow Copywriting and Marketing
http://www.rowanshead.com
Here’s the deal…I survived a year of Stomper at the pre-discount price. It was tres cool but worth less than the price of admission. Still, I love to learn, so, since I am my own accountant, I chalk it up to education (wonderful, but I can’t take it to the bank).
After the Stomper experience, I have three favorite people in the world. Andy and Dan make two. Leslie Rohde is the other. Okay, that’s an exaggeration, but you guys are great, even if my mother and son are greater.
But, since I’m building this comment on hyperbole, there are two things I hate. 1) Mind maps. 2) Videos longer than 15 minutes or webinars that are always scheduled at times that I have something better to do and always go waaaaaaay longer than 15 minutes. Okay, that’s really three, but the last two are pretty much the same.
I don’t have as much time as my far more successful colleagues in this business and I don’t have their money. But I love everything you guys do.
Yes the voting idea is great, but, of course, it depends upon the choices. I’ve held my nose and voted enough times in my life. I’m going to be undemocratic and say, “Make a choice, choose a focus and see who bites the bait.”
For you two, I think the greatest would be how to use video to build links and traffic to your site. C’mon, you are the best at each.
Greg
Bring it!
If you could throw in some process maps that would totally rock.
Best regards
Simon
P.s. Any chance of adding “Video Triggers” as a bonus
Dude… Where’s the UxPic signup form?
Hi Andy,
I think you’re confused. Do you want to skype me about it?
As you said there was nothing wrong with the GT idea and you have the calibre to do it.
The problem was the marketig was as a cheap mind map, not as a $10K guru club. So people who attended, weren’t expecting it. AKA you didn’t attract people with 10K by calling it the 10K club.
Personally I’m very doubtful that mnd maps are the way to run a 10K club. It may well be how YOU think and can THEN explain or even present, but my life is not a mind map. I certainly wouldn’t want to pay 10K for a mind map.
So GT is fine, but you’d need to promote it as high end with Eben and Kern, about the only 2 with members at that level.
“You Call the Shots” or “on demand mastermind” (ODM) does not work for me personally either. People don’t realy know what they need to “succeed”. That’s why they are asking you!
Sure we all have basic skills we know we need, but that is a COURSE, like (cough) stompernet.
So sure you can do a course, but YOU should probably decide what is in it, for 95% of it.
SO what do “I” want. I want your brian, ideally 1:1 for cheap.
Or like HS did, we text in our questions and you answer the best ones. He even gave away prizes, but ok no need for teddies from you
But how much did attending thes eHS telesemiars EARN me? ZERO! ZILCH! NADA! Thanks HS.
But what do I need to “SUCCEED”? I need “you” to “review” my business (make a mind map if you want, I don’t care a duck. I just don’t want to see a mind map myself)
If there are specific holes in my skills, then with all respect, I can probably get these elsewhere.
Looking over your shoulder. Yeah sure the IM groupies will want to do that (no disrepect) but there are people who want to watch because it is interesting and a club to be in and something to do, and they have some disposable cash, and there are people who NEED to be in BUSINESS and EARN money, fo rreal. Not just talk about it.
Sure I’m fascinated what you will do wth video triggers, but it doesn’t help “my” business (it is not a parallel) so why am I going to pay you for that, when you will/should make that evolution process, part of your sales funnel for your own product.
So in summary, what can you and dan bring to the table?
Specific high level skills.
Do it cheaply.
A text in question pool that everyone can hear, is probably it.
But honestly personally I’m not paying yo $200 for that either, but that is just me. But there is a recession on!
I need to SELL PragmaticVideo units (affiliate deal available) which will help THEM to make money for themselves, not sit round the phone toasting marshmallows and listening to IM ghost stories.
Is $200 per month for 30 minutes of your time too little?
Plus what Dan can do! That’s 2.5 hours work per day for aquarter fo a million, just for “chatting”.
I guess so. Though my calculator says 5 per day (2.5hours work) is $1000, aka $20k per month, aka $240,000, and you’re not exactly skint today anyway
And that’s largely what “I” need.
That and possibly the global question pool for when I run out of credits.
But without the 1:1 of something like GT , my business is not going to fly.
If I want core skills, I can get them for $97 one tme from endless core skill video courses. Yo have nothing new there!
Your speciality is turning businesses in to “successful” businesses.
YES I’d lke some of that please!
Also for Dan. Sure I can learn SEO (yawn), or Dan can look at my site for 15 minutes per month, give me an auto scan report and just tell me what to do. Jeeze, how hard is that?
This IS the whole issue with stompernet. Too much info.
I don’t need to become an SEO guru myself, I just need my site to rock in organic search.
A ten minute scan by dan and go “heading sucks, keywords sucks, conversion sucks, do this, this and this) and we are done for the month.
Rinse and rrepeat every month. Now THAT is worth $200 per month “to me”.
Else it’s plan A. Just find enough people who have $10K to give you. But MHO it won’t be on the back end of some $7 mind maps.
Holes not drills.
You are not sellign mind maps.
you are selling the process they respresent.
You seem to have forgotten that.
Feel free to skype me and swear at me (search skype for peterbuick)
Personally I would work in a master mind group for FREE, if anyone thinks we can benefit from shared knowledge.
I know what is holding me back is distance and focus and that’s something I can never give “myself”. I can only give it to others.
That’s how mastermind’ing works! No one is better than another. They just have a fresh perspective and voice and experiences and data.
I know am not what you want to hear. But the trouble with yes men,”that’s nice dear”, is like your mummuy, they don’t spend much money.
Peter Buick.
No mind map available….
I have been saying this same exact think Peter. We all know who the marketing Gurus are. But just like everyone else in business, the gurus need to do something different. ‘
I think paid masterminds are CRAP. People need to wake the hell up and start implementing some of the things they have learned over the past year or so.
Everyone in the world is looking for something different, not the same ole same ole.
I’m thinking there is a really tasty wave next to your new place that needs some riding!
First I downloaded your mind map, but when I tried to print it out it shows up all on one page. I tried everything I knew to get it to ennlarge, but I had know luck.
I do like the idea of you asking what everyone needs to help better their business. Workshops are always great for networking and learning, so that is also a great idea. And the up sell is something is wirkable.
Your webinar was great, a lot of information, causing info overload.
After watching your webinar I do believe I am going to get a hold of a mind map program. Could use some ideas or hints on a good mind program.
Thanks,
You Guys are really Good
So…I was all ready to send you the deposit, am a 7 figure maker now, and saw this as a great way to get another set of eyes, I am in another well know mastermind group and the appeal of two solid guys actually physically looking at my business over 6 months made me salivate a touch..and I thought it would be great for the synergys that would be created by a bunch of people who walk the walk..I do not want to be in yet another program with folks who just havent done it yet (no offense), but I simply want to go to the next level, and as an underground guy, perhaps become more above ground, by networking and creating some new opportunities with you guys and others in the room, so after that little rant ..I am still somehwat confused..
Is GT going to run as per sales letter ?..or is it dead ??..
Let us know, I will join GT as is today if it runs as per letter..
If not Im out sorry..
Can you clarify that mate
CHeers
Matt
Exactly what he said!
I am totally in if GT stays the way it was originally outlined.
I hear what the people that can’t afford GT are saying… it was not so long ago that I was in the situation of not being able to afford a mastermind that I wanted to join… but I didn’t complain to the creators and get the price lowered… I worked my butt off to be able to afford it.
I’m just sayin’… I would LOVE to be a part of the original GT plan; if that’s dead, then I will be passing. Sorry.
Matt
I would be very interested in the course as well and I too printed out your UltimateWoe Mind Map (actually it is quite difficult as it is so long.)
Most important for me is how the course supports international people. I am from down under and hate those courses which are at 3am in the morning for me
Cheers,
Bora
PS: Did you ever consider putting your mind map in to http://www.thebrain.com/ ? This way you can put it live for anybody to browse in it and you can even add documents etc. to it. Awesome tool.
Sounds a great idea particularly at the low affordable price point. Not many people offering fresh content and advice at that level!
I definitely prefer GT to the new concept.
Not to knock the new concept or anything, I just feel that personally I would get more benefit out of GT… and I was more than happy to send you and Dan the $10,000 for it.
I DID apply and was super excited for the opportunity to meet a bunch of other people at my level and higher.
I was also REALLY stoked about coming to San Diego… especially twice!
Thanks,
Matt
How about you tell the group to get off their ASS and just go make some money. There comes a time in everyone’s life when the rubber needs to meet the road, and that time is now people.
Andy and Dan are two bad ass internet marketing peeps, and they know what they are talking about… But don’t do it UNLESS you are going to use what they are teaching….
Hi Andy (& Dan),
I’d originally indicated interest in the GT (and we qualify perfectly, needing to take things to the next level), but three things stopped me from immediate signup:
1. ROI — I’m up against the rev-limiter as it is, so a spend of 10k would need not so much to teach me “technique” as to help us execute far more effectively … so that I’m not up against the rev-limiter so that I can work “on” the business blah blah. Somehow it didn’t do it for me, even though that seemed to be some of the essence of the pitch. I liked (and still do) the non-formulaic approach. I won’t “do” a program such as Rich Schefren’s for example, because I resent the plug’n'play sausage factory and DON’T want to re-consume stuff I already know. Knowledge is not the issue when it comes to guru-therapy IMHO – it’s ability to execute and be coachable (and remove constraints, but that’s Brad-talk).
I REALLY wanted you to tell me that with your help & coaching, I’d have revenue tripled in 6 mths … or I could flame you to death (or ask for my money back, which would be less painful).
2. The structure didn’t seem quite right (which you have recognized). Minor point for me is living in Australia doesn’t make live events attractive, even though I love them – and I was at Stomper Live Five. There is something attractive about spending more time with peers who are not new at this and who are doing 6-figures and more. I do believe that you and Dan ARE capable of lending your expertise … your history is proof enough.
3. It seemed “too casually constructed” (I realize you and Dan are probably apoplectic right now – but that’s the way it came across). I’m a long-time business-owner and while I enjoy “cool stuff”, it doesn’t make me buy, what I buy is results (for me) … and it seemed all a little too much like “hey, watch me, this is cool”, rather than, ‘hey guy, I’m gonna MAKE you get off your ass and ATTAIN your goal”.
So .. I’m still in for GT, UXPOX, SMLPOX or whatever it is … how about this:
Reverse Guru Therapy:
1. Join for $200/mth – get the stuff you named already (voting or not – my personal preference is not as I fear it will dumb it down. I don’t need more stuff about creating autoresponders or what merchant a/c to use).
2. Love the $200/mth “taster”? … Then get the full girlfriend experience and upgrade to GT2.0 – we’ll credit your NOSEPIX purchases so far and take you to a whole new level.
Anyway, enough rambling – you guys do have the bling to do whatever you want!
What will help the time-poor semi-successful entrepreneur the most?
Thanks for the invitation to comment!
Robert
@Lynn Terry & @Peter Buick
Thanks for expanding – I only read yours after I posted mine (it was a cached page) and you seem to express the same sentiments. Lynn, I think you seem to have a very similar perspective to me about ROI.
Peter – I liked what you said about selling us OUR process, not the “look at me” stuff (though i would find it interesting. But then again so is reading the paper, only cheaper).
I also loved that you want Andy’s “brian”. That gave me a chuckle!
Robert
Still sounds out of my league, but the “You Call the Shot” training works. Jim Edwards has been polling his Net Reporter members for a few years now on what they want for the next 3-6 months, which he then goes off and develops. Your monthly poll idea might work, but I’m thinking it could end up too piecemeal.
Hmmm – I’m not at the 6 figures level but I totally appreciate what Lynn, Peter and Robert have said.
While I live in a democracy and can appreciate concensus, I am strongly opposed to “voting” when it comes to business exapansion, business acceleration, or simply new ideas.
Robert is correct, when you let everyone vote, it usually ends up in information many of us don’t need or want because of the “dumbing down” to the lowest common denominator. That’s part of why I stopped working with small business start-ups – same questions over and over as new people come in and want the basics. That’s also why it’s so much more useful for the knowledge broker to make the rules – then I can decide if s/he is offering what I need or want.
Now, I LOVE mindmaps – have been using them since the 1980s and appreciate that they are back. I usually grab any that I can find in case they offer interesting relationships that I haven’t considered before. And I like “look over my shoulder” stuff, too. But only if it’s something I want clarity on, or something that causes me to expand my thinking.
In the case of what you’re considering, I’m afraid that I’d end up getting bored unless the votes somehow miraculously jived with what I am interested in. And somehow I doubt that will happen – at least that’s my experience to date.
So thanks for being willing to think in a different way and consider alternatives that might meet the needs of your audience. And yes, I’d love to have something that might cause me to get to the 6 figure mastermind level. I just don’t think what you’re offering would do either – but then I doubt I’m your “average” audience.
A few hundred a month will appeal to a lot broader base of people. Personally, I’d rather do the high level but it sounds like I’m in the minority.
Drew – being in the minority was the perk
Thanks Everyone! Keep the comments coming!
I enjoyed the webinars and mindmaps a lot.
I think the Guru Therapy is cool and would look forward to joining in a year or two. Frank’s group is not open and I look forward to eventually joining a high end program. Rich’s GPS was totally cool and worthwhile. We got about 2 hours face time every day for like 5 months. I learned a lot and do things differently every day and even think differently.
I already have Lynn Terry and Bob Jenkins as mentors and get live Q&A and or Strategy sessions every month so a you call the shots is not interesting to me. Lynn and Bob rock as mentors.
I have an accountability partner that kicks my …. every week. It makes a big difference.
So for me I am not buying, yet if you still have Guru Therapy available when I am ready for it and quality, then I am in.
I also suggest you keep providing free webinars to build your list of future Guru Therapy students and prospects for your upcoming video product launch.
I would like to attend a live event with you and Dan especially if it is on the west coast and in Silicon Valley would be the best for me.
Thanks again for the really cool mind maps and webinars that demonstrated your thinking process for a good sales funnel and conversion.
Clay
correction, We did not get daily face time with Rich for 5 months it just seemed like it. It was probably 6 weeks and a few weekends and a live event for $2,500. It was a good investment for me.
Andy, did you go surfing again?
I did go surfing again, on Saturday. And I got my a** handed to me by waves that were clearly not meant to be tamed by someone that was on their second round. But the water was really cold and I didn’t have a wet-suit so I had that going for me.
Totally Cool Andy, I tried surfing in Santa Barbara and Santa Cruz when I was a teenager, but did not have any surfer dudes to show me the ropes. I think it is awesome that you live there in La Jolla and have cool buddies to hang out and go surfing with. Pretty soon you will be hanging ten in the warm waters of Hawaii.
Hmmm, my thoughts.
Like Robert I live in Australia so the timing of calls could prove difficult. I do stay up til 3-4am for webinars but it takes me a couple of days to get over it. I’m not 25 or even 45 now.
I’m also not sure of the ‘you call the shots’. You guys are the experts, I would want to learn what MADE you experts. Mindmaps gratefully accepted and learned from though.
My final sticking point is cost. Yesterday I banked my second ever Clickbank cheque and I’ve been trying to learn and earn money for two years. I would hate to work out my ROI so far.
Just my 1c worth as I need the other cent for food.
Kathy
Hi Andy,
First let me say, I’m a fan of yours. Not one of those suck-up, everything-they-utter-is-great guys, just a fan who appreciates your knowledge and experience, and willingness to help others.
Unfortunately – and I speak only for myself, though I know many who feel the same – a once-trustworthy person in a position to take advantage of that trust, TOTALLY violated said trust with that Arbitrage Conspiracy debacle.
The net result – again, I speak for me – is that there’s no way I’m coughing up 4 figures for anything even remotely like “Guru Training” ever again.
Doesn’t mean it wouldn’t be worth it, doesn’t mean it isn’t exactly what it’s purported to be, it means that those who had my trust sold it out, and poisoned the well.
Best,
Mark
CNA Training Class
Mark, you do realize that I had absolutely nothing to do with TAC, right? Like – NOTHING to do with it. That was all Brad and the TAC dudes. Where that’s concerned, my hands is clean!
Thanks Andy,
I do know that, and I hope most others do as well. Problem is the “perception” halo effect.
As far as I’m concerned your hands are clean as well, and as I wrote in the post, I have much respect and appreciation for your knowledge, experience, and over-all “good-guy-ness”.
BUT, you did ask for our legit feelings, and that whole episode really changed my attitude about investing in this sort of thing, and I assume others.
Props to you, Jerry West, et. al.
PS- sent you an email with a bit more explanation.
I love the idea and the approach.
I like the topic vote idea, it would be interesting to see what would bubble up to the top.
I don’t have the finances to support it right now.
But i’m working my way there and once I do your first on my list.
I like your candid approach Andy, you were the reason I was interested in StomperNet in the first place.
Hi Andy,
Woah – I just wrote a maaaaaaaasively long comment here and decided to delete it all and stick to point form … here goes:
1. GT at $10,000 was cheap … but not targeted enough to ME to make me purchase.
2. Living in Australia (does it seem like Aussies are the ones with money or is just me?), live sessions are useless … I am tired of flying.
3. Being around people who can pay $10k to be in a Mastermind is appealling … being around people who have built 6+ figure businesses is a fresh of breath air … but these people (ie. me) are generally more experienced and aren’t groupies who tend to buy anything and everything. We ‘evaluate’ things much more.
Your GT sounded interesting, but too little detail – in fact no detail until the last 10 minutes of a webinar. So … I didn’t bite.
4. I understand that you and Dan are looking to do something on your own, start something new … and make money.
But this latest post tells me you guys have lost your way a little. You want as many people to sign up for ‘anything’ you can sell so hey, tell us what you want and we’ll do it so you can give us money.
Point is – ‘You the call the shots’ Training is crazytalk. These people need to learn what they need to be successful. They are NOT successful (most of them) because they DO NOT KNOW what they need to know. If they did, they would have learnt it already, and been successful enough to pay $10k for you GT
5. In a nutshell – I want ONE-on-ONE – (or TWO-on-One including Dan … he is a good fit with you btw).
You guys are successful. I don’t care that you are successful at be ‘info marketers’. I care that you guys are successful at running BIG businesses. You’ve been there, seen it, fixed the stuff-ups, caused stuff-ups and learnt from them.
I will be more than happy to pay you and Dan $10K … even more … but it has to be about ME … about MY business. I want you and Dan looking at MY business, telling ME what to do, telling ME where I am lacking, and how I need to fix it.
I don’t want general info that people can apply. I want specifics to MY business for ME to apply.
Give me that, and I will give you my open check-book.
Cheers
Tom
PS – I just realised something … you guys have not segmented your market properly. You are pitching two wildly different products and the same folks. Some of the folks are new and finding their feet, some are established. You need to segment your audience and pitch the right stuff to the right people … otherwise, as is the case now, you look disorganised and ‘all over the shop’.
I don’t want more general information … I was specifics … about ME.
- 4.
Tom, did you not read the sales letter for GT?
http://www.gurutherapy.com. Let me know if that doesn’t have enough detail for ya.
It does lack one important detail, which I pointed about above: the WHEN. I almost got the feeling we were expected to drop everything to take whatever schedule of events were decided on – after committing. Not an ideal approach with this particular target market IMHO.
I got ya Lynn, with that said, with a group that small, we’d simply get a reading on where everyone was, what their preferred times were, and shoot for something that everyone could live with. If we needed to, we would rotate the schedule to accommodate. For example, I wouldn’t want YOU to feel it wouldn’t work if we RANDOMLY chose Thursdays for a session. Know what I mean?
Hi Andy,
Not having a go at you mate. I follow you because you are straight to the point and don’t beat around the bush. I joined StomperNet because of you.
But yes, I did read the sales letter. I actually read it like 10 times thinking about whether to join or not.
From memory, the only ME time was I think 15 minutes on the phone. The rest is in group calls (which is usually not stuff related to me), Live Mastermind group (which I didn’t want to fly to), guest speakers (I don’t want guest speakers, I want you and Dan
), and your open record of launching your Video Triggers (may be wrong on this last one .. brains a little fuzzy).
The sales letter can me summed in the above i think.
Anyway, for $10k, its all about me
– which also means I need to know when the sessions would be occuring time wise … but that’s only because I am DownUnder.
I have followed Rich Schefren, Mike Filsaime, StomperNet, Frank Kern etc for years now, and at this stage, I realised that info is great, but most of it is repetitive, so no more info products for me. I need ME stuff.
But hey, I do realise that is only for ME, many others still learning and the info is important.
I don’t sell info products by the way.
Keep up the straight talk … its refreshing!
Tom
First of all Tom, “Not having a go at you mate” made me smile from ear to ear. I WISH I could do an Oz accent – I’d talk like that ALL the time.
Second – I hear what you’re saying and could probably do a little bit more explaining on the group calls – which usually turn into one on one discussions, just with an audience.
And like Lynn Terry pointed out, the timing and schedule thing is a weird one, but as I used to work with cousin Ed Dale down their in OZ, I’m accustomed to getting up early or staying up late.
Hmm…Oatmeal Marketing. Seems like you got some ideas out of your interview with Lynn as well as your own insightful concepts of course!
When I heard about the Guru Therapy Program, I totally got it and saw the wisdom of it. I knew it would have a limited enrollment, but what a wonderful master mind group!
I have followed you and Dan for quite some time now and know that being mentored by you both in any way would be beneficial. Of course if I were a member of your program, I would go to a live event ~ I get a lot out of live events and meeting people face to face.
What I would say is that you both have to follow your hearts, passions and instincts. What type of program do you want to be involved with? Whichever you decide, people will benefit.
Looking forward to seeing which direction you decide on…
PS Again ~ Welcome to the San Diego area!
LOL – some folks think we’ve “Lost our way” because we’re opening an idea to public opinion. Trust me, we’ve got a handle on things… When you get a “marketing” message from me, you’ll know it.
This is what it appears to be – asking my audience for feedback. Nothing sinister…. MUHAHAHAH.
P.S. Keep the comments coming!
Sorry, me again
I think people have followed you for long enough to know you guys haven’t really lost your way. So yeah, maybe lost your way is a little … hmmm, harsh.
I see this post in this light:
1. Not sure you meant it this way, but it sounds like your doing a back flip on the GT program. Notice the folks asking ‘is this still going ahead as advertised’?
2. To the same audience, you are talking about cancelling a $10k product (yes, it may only sound like your cancelling), and considering doing a ‘less that 200 bucks’ product.
That’s a biiiiiiiig change (if its a change – notice my confusion).
That is the ‘all over the shop’ part I mentioned before. Hence my PS that I think you need to segment the audience.
Cheers
Tom
PS – this is my last reply to this thread – fearing the Andy slap now
Tom, you can slap me if you like, too… Segmenting, and surveying, is exactly what we’re doing here. We had two concepts to start with – GT was one – this is the other one – and yes, we will only do one of them, not both.
Thanks for the clarification Dan – and no, no slap coming your way (scared you might enjoy it).
A question though – would it not have been better to segment and survey before offering up the GT program and taking deposits?
The sceptic in me says that you guys put the GT program out there, but it didn’t work. So going back to the drawing board.
Man, I sound like I am taking pot shots at you guys. Believe me I’m not … I am just genuinely confused by all of this … never seen it before from you Elite fellas.
Tom
PS – ok, this is REALLY my last post now *hides in shame*
Skepticism is good. And I for one enjoy the mild confusion that accompanies non-standard activites.
Here’s one that will bake your noodle – I just sent out an email to one of my list segments (yep) that offered a choice to remain a fan or unsubscribe. I didn’t do it because I want to lose subscribers, I did it for a bunch of other reasons that just might confuse you.
(One percent un-sub rate, btw).
Anyway, the bottom line is, doing the thing that is “never seen before” is kinda cool – and think about it this way… It got YOU to engage, right?
So, THERE! heh.
ROFL!
It’s all good Tom, I love you, I love the way you sound, and that you just got up and Im getting ready to go to bed.
Consider that my subscriber list is new, in terms of data integrity – I’m not using the StomperNet data. So, in a way, market segmentation will evolve via the responses that I get from things…well, things like this.
Not doing a back flip at all. I’m pretty used to adapting to users needs – but the public didn’t see it much because it was usually behind the vale of StomperNet membership. Like I said, asking for people’s opinions is probably gonna come across as strange and that most folks are not used to it.
I DO find it hilarious that asking questions about what people want is perceived as a sign of confusion or weakness. Seriously, take a look at the 48 responses here – is this not market data TO DIE FOR?
GT (The original) may open, or it may not. But before it does, I want to be absolutely certain that we’re buttoned up from all perspectives. For example, I THOUGHT it was obvious that we’d schedule meetings according to the needs of the groups, but as Lynn Terry pointed out – we didn’t mention that. That alone was at LEAST a $10,000 mistake. Right?
And if we do a lower cost membership, I’ve got some pretty good feedback on what people want (Surprisingly, they don’t all want a say in what content gets made – that was a new one on me, so…WIN)
BTW, I LOVE these conversations. Blogs rule.
Why don’t you guys set up a membership site…do your GT program as the Premium member level…access to all of everything any time and recordings of what you’ve covered in your meetings (as several people commented above and I can only imagine this is something that is *wanted*)…
Then, open up additional levels as “lower levels” (i.e. bronze, silver, gold) for the “other people” and “feed” out different parts and sections of the Premo’ stuff to different levels. You’ll be recycling the content, not having to play the “what do you want to learn today little boy” routine and getting PAID multiple times over for the same stuff you did one time!
…just a thought. Hope all is well
Jeremy, this is a great idea, yet it will not work becuase the GP therapy folks do not want to share the discussions. It is a tight group with actual or implied “confidentialily agreements” to not share outside of the group. Otherwise it would not work.
Also it is tailored to build existing businesses to the next level so it is focused, specific, actionable and tailored to the specific members rather than a general “this is it folks” approach.
Funny for me I struggle to get IM working the way I want, yet I can go into any business including a multi million dollar corporation and improve their processes all over the place. This is what I did in my old job as a strategic supplier manager for a billion dollar company. LOL
Hey Clay, thanks for the additional detail on “how” the program was to be set-up.
I was basing my comment under the assumption that Andy was looking for a way to cater to an additional lower-paying clientele also, at the same time.
Being as you described, there will always still be processes (if, then, when) that can be applied across the board. These “bits” and keeping an “undisclosed names of actual result holders” can obviously still be maintained while only sharing, process mapped and discussed in a way that still maintains the integrity and exclusivity of the GT program, but on another level of intimacy, for a “lesser paying” client.
Thinking of “my business is different” is a trap that I’ve learned to avoid. Pitfalls, processes, tactics and strategies are, from what I’ve learned, almost always universal. What matters most now is the level of intimacy with the actual teachers, coaches, gurus, etc.
With every “tight group” the curtain is usually pulled back (as seen with many recent launches) but typically (in my opinion) it is when “that tight group” has moved on, advanced and ascended to a new level, therefore it becomes OK to share some of this, now lower level or common ground, because they have excelled and begun on to something new…and even more advanced.
Great conversation to watch.
I wish I were in a position for the GT, that will be something to shoot for.
Other idea sounds good, at the lower price, but I would steer clear from the monthly group decision making. Maybe initially getting a feel for where everyone is at, but as someone up above said, most people don’t know what they need, except the need for actionable content with some accountability.
Jim
http://www.SBDCouncil.com
I love that you guys are thinking outside the box. I love the attitude, as well. The GT dealeo was primarily based on I.M. in the context of info products, ya? Is the “looky, looky here, this is what I wants to know” program, intended to be for peeps primarily interested in info products?
I’m in Dan’s L.L. at the moment, and while you and Dan are tops on my list of gangsters to learn from, and while I commend you for creative thinking–I think the idea is inherently flawed.
I try to approach my I.M. very methodically…in that I go from topic to topic, and try to garner a solid command of it…before going on to the next subject. All the while running my ecommerce site (which is doing pretty well, for 6 mos. out), and handling the insidious task of building links (Hence the L.L. course).
Anyway, point being…if you were to offer your video course tomorrow…and that was the only focus of the course–I would be on it like white on rice.
I have a handful of topics that I recognize that I need/want to learn more about…but I just can’t see taking a course whereby the things that I will be learning may already be stuff that I feel I have a good command of, or stuff that I’m not terribly interested in…such as the various tactics for doing an info product launch.
Are you picking up what I’m throwing down, Andy?
That’s just my 2cents, anyway.
I hesitated to even bring it up, as…like I said…I appreciate the out-of-the-box thinking, and applaud your attitude, but I just don’t think it makes a lot of sense…just saying
Thanks,
Doug
I got ya dawg! All good stuff mang. These are the sorts of opinions that I’m dying to get – awesome.
Andy, I think you need a ‘Kern Moment’ to rethink exactly where you want to go from here.
Frank stopped teaching internet marketing because, by his own admission, he’d run out of things to say. Some years later he hooks into the whole NLP/Robert Cialdini/Derren Brown thing and hey presto, a whole new business. You already have a wholly unique set of abilities which would be sadly lost in yet another ‘guru mastermind’ kind of exercise. Those very same strengths are EXACTLY what marketers are going to need over the coming years.
You already know what marketers need to know – it’s the combination of video, copy and presentation that gets sales. By good fortune or whatever you are now an independent operator at exactly the point in time when things are going to start going seriously ballistic.
I really would love to be where you’re at right now. Focus on what you’re fantastic at and we’ll be there with you.
Thanks tons Chris!
I haven’t even started to teach what I know. While I was at StomperNet, I didn’t get to make my Video Product, and I didn’t get to make my Membership Club product, I didn’t get to talk about Mindset, or Operations, or Leadership…
But those were the things I DID.
So, it’s absolutely not a question of ideas – I actually feel a little bottled up with them – that’s what happens when you come off of running an 8-Figure company.
This is exactly what it looks like – a conversation.
EVERYONE – PLEASE, don’t “WORRY” about me – I’m GREAT! I just wanted to TALK to y’all!!!
I completely agree with Peter Buick
I don’t like mindmaps either, I want the personal touch. You can charge what you want and I imagine someone will pay it. But what do you two guys really want? What ‘effect’ are you seeking?
Honestly if I had 10k I wouldn’t pay it for what you propose, I’ve lost confidence in ‘mass’ market “ways to be successful at internet marketing”. Too much information, video’s are too long, yet another email, pdf’s coming out my ears, bonus, special bonus, super duper bonus, bonus cause its 10am Tuesday, $1 if you give me your address blah.
I need personal 1:1 and I can’t afford to pay big. Many people who know of you have been around long enough to still be trying to get this right, another group, another webinar, another exclusive membership club ain’t going to work for many of us because the blockages to success are more personal e.g. lack of confidence, belief in oneself – these blocks can be removed far more effectively with 1:1 – this is what I need and i’m not going to spend anymore money on another group solution.
It’s up to you guys and what you sincerely want out of this. I’d like to see you put all our names into a hat, pick a few and offer mentioning for a nominal fee.
You asked, happy surfing
The only effect we’re seeking is engagement with our audience.
To be perfectly honest – Dan and I don’t NEED to do anything. Link Liberation was a smashing success, and my exit from StomperNet involved “SELLING” my shares for “Money”.
So, it’s not about figuring out what to do just for the sake of doing something – it’s about engaging the people that buy our products and asking them their opinion. If we give them exactly what they want and they’re still unsatisfied, then they were full of shit. But if we don’t at least have the conversation, then we’re not being good stewards of the community. And again, I find this all terrifically valuable.
[...] Marketing Test = FAIL… (The People Have Spoken)… [...]
Andy, a great idea the GT and the “you call the shot” or directed learning, where the learner directs the course, a great twist on a proven concept. It’s like having your own IM tutor.
Having seen you go through mind map directed projects at StomperNet, from the inside, the value of the maps is immeasurable not only as a planning tool, but as a execution tool. The mind maps are, in your word, the shizzle. Think it all through, refine, update, execute. This project you and Dan have going gives the market what so many have been clamoring for, a road map or to do list for success. Better yet, a set of tools that can be used to perpetuate success.
Hi Andy,
Hope it’s alright if I’m brutally honest my family hates me for it and it’s a major set back in my personal life and is directly effecting my ability to be honest and earnest in my attempt at starting my business since 2006 PT and now FT since may of 2008. I wish I knew in 2006 what I know now about the value in what I have learned; like how just by buying a $400.00 product (TSII) one can end with up over $15,000.00 in very valuable info products including (STSE 1&2) causing major overwhelm and confusion which I finally found out how to control which is by just saying no. Finally “Getting It” is key once you do that your on your way like I am. I know it’s going to be a slow start but now that I am in a Master Mind I have a purpose and its guidance is what is driving me. I’m now realizing in my case my family will only on get on the ride when they see the money. I’m hoping not to lose them on the way. “THEN WHAT?” can not happen fast enough but it’s part of the process.
When I saw the naked mind map my first though was this is why people get overwhelmed. I did not realize your target market was for six figure businesses. BUT when you had the modified version along with the video I thought WOW this is good shit knowing the bottom line is you can’t do it yourself, it cost money to make money even if it’s a charity. I have learned a ton of stuff from both of you guy’s and highly recommend the investment especially if you have reached “THEN WHAT?”.
P.S.
Can’t tweet you if you don’t tweet back. I am following.
I really don’t want to see the Guru Therapy idea die. For me, what got me excited was the fact that I had the opportunity to have the mindshare of Andy Jenkins, and Dan Thies look at my business and provide personalized insight on how to directly improve it, not just generic concepts, and beyond that, also have the insight of a group of successful smart people that also see the value in that service.
What made me uncomfortable with the final product was I didn’t feel I knew that you and Dan were really committing for 6 months to help improve and optimize our businesses. The way it was structured with the 15 minute calls, and the group teleconferences, etc…, it seemed that we’d only get a portion of your attention.
I understand that maybe $250,000 for 6 months is not enough money to purchase 100% focus, and in that case I would have preferred that you made the cost $5,000 /month and committed to the next 6 months of just pure committed intellectual energy on the members of Guru Therapy. If I knew that was going to happen and I could see the way that it was structured proved that that was the case it’s worth the money.
Also, the way I’d see it is that you should make the group smaller, let’s say 20 members at $5,000 /month, dedicate 75% of your time (leave 25% for your other main project) to that group for the 6 months, but also at the same time to monetize even more, is hire 2 people who participate and generate content based on it. Re-purpose videos, make more generic mind-maps, etc… and then sell that after the 6 months period once you have case studies of what happened to the 20 people who were part of that group.
Please do not sell out and try to make a package that the generic public wants, because it’s loses it’s edge and value, make something that the small group that choose it, really do benefit from it, and the primary benefit is getting yours and Dan’s mindshare focused and dedicated on their business.
Appreciate that Eamon – I absolutely LOVE hearing what the public wants – they’re my audience and I want to give them what they want. I know it’s an odd and radical concept (heh)…
Guru Therapy isn’t dead – if anything, the feedback we’ve gotten here would just make it better.
Hello again.
I love how this conversation is going, so I’ll pitch in my 2 cents.
The main reason I was interested in the “UxPic” program was the whole “look over my shoulder as I build video triggers from scratch. That, paired with some good mindmaps and maybe one or two webinars where you take some questions about the whole thing would definitely be worth it.
I am also VERY interested in the actual video triggers product. You’ve got a lot of experience in video stuff and when you talk about it, you shine (it shows through your voice).
In fact, Video Triggers is one product that I’d LOVE to promote as an affiliate (a product build with true passion will always be a winner)… so please Andy, I’m begging you, no lame “product launch open for 7 days and I’ll take it off the market” on this one.
So to wrap it up… My suggestion would be that you do the whole “look over my shoulder + mindmaps + webinars” as a product in and of itself. No votes to dumb things down and no group hugging.
Cheers!
Miguel Alvarez
P.S.-
Do get in touch with me about your affiliate program for that one. =)
Thanks Miguel – and BTW, how the heck are you man?
Doing good man, thanks for asking… And by the looks of it, you’re doing great too now that you’re free again.
BTW. Let me know if there is *anything* I can do to help with your new projects. You know I admire your work and I’d love to work with you on something.
Cheers!
Miguel Alvarez
Andy
IMHO there seems to be a real desire for the business review. Which is almost entirely 1:1 (and expensive). As you know Eben did this for $20K but as seminars/telecalls. He would publicly rip apart peoples busineses though, but not every ones.
GT seems to be very much alive for you. You just need to promote it to get sufficent $10K heads.
At the lower end, I’ma little dissapointed, but not surprised, at the “oomph”. People may not have $10K to spend, but that shoud not be what DRIVES them AFAIC.
People still need to DESIRE a 6+ figure business, even if they don’t have one yet. Isn’t that part of the success they crave rubbing off from you/dan?
I think this highlights the divide in your list segmentation.
1) People who have $10K and see the benefit in spending it.
2) People who see the benefit but don;t have i spare.
3) People who think they aren’t in league 1 & 2 (yet).
People seem to be too “comfortable” dabbling. Exactly the reason why I still say on-demand topics will be lame. People don’t know what they need. I really think this proves it.
@Nic Fraser
I think we are in a similar boat. So I think our solution is called strategic friends. Look me up.
@Clay Franklin I guess Lynn Terry has you covered from what I am thinking of, but you seem old school marketing like I am. We should talk joining the dots IMHO.
@Robert Scanlon @Katie I guess what I am thinking would bore you?
Andy, you are at the GT level, you should stick to it. Be an Eben, not a Mike.
Even 1 stompernet is 1 too many
I’m looking forward to the day when I can easily afford to pay 10K for GT. And that’s what puts me in my own club.
Peter
I’m seeing the desire for reviews as well Peter.
@Peter – I’m sure it wouldn’t bore me – I loooove all the detail of internet marketing (that’s part of my problem actually) – it might be that we are simply in different playgrounds for the moment. I’ll happily talk about making websites & autorresponders all day long. I apologize if I accidentally implied an insult!
For me it is all about the ROI – should I spend $10k on extending my hiring (and get a TON of help for that money), or could I have Andy & Dan help me get inside my business & grow it more effectively than mere outsourcing.
For sure the “review” is a part of it, but also collaboration with experienced peers and some perspective on the “why/what/how”. It’s very easy to become lured into purchasing many of the educational products (as I am guilty of) and executing very little … it’s taken me some time to move beyond that (I had to shake myself and review some of my old business consulting skills … resulting in an epiphany. Any more info though and it would be boring!) and now I’d really like to prevail on people that have “been there, done that” to see what I must do to make the next breakthrough.
@ Andy Jenkins – in my view you sound a little defensive in some replies and frankly there is no need to be at all – “it is what it is” and you are very good at “the conversation” – please keep it up.
And just release a program called “Monster Makeover By The Big Guys” hehe
Thanks Robert – If I sounded defensive, I didn’t mean to. I was just pointing out that I’m not really after anything at all except the conversation. And it doesn’t mean anything other than that GOD DAMN IT!
Totally!
I do love a good convo …
Dan / Andy,
Dan knows me and I highly respect his work. I have close to working with Stomper and have followed you Andy for some time. It appears you’re considering new concepts and know there is a demand for yourself, however packaging yourself is becoming a challenge to provide the right value and the right package (you and Dan).
While only personal opinion, I could be wrong. However, the idea of YCI (you call it) is definitely unique. However, this is simply no different than a glorified version of coaching. Rather than private coaching, it appears you’re offering a user control, semi-private coaching.
My opinion is slightly different than most. I think you’re almost there, but the idea of YGI might be the wrong package. It’s very hard to apply sustainable results for a program that is user defined.
I’m going to suggest a variation on this. Something I would be interested in with my info product which is now practically complete. It’s a product for the Internet Marketer (Dan, completely reworked from your version) that teaches them the execution and management of building an Internet Marketing agency for local businesses, including sales and management methodologies used in my agency that is now 1/2 Mil in sales.
The variation is similar to Howie’s Apprentice program. However Howie is known for quick entry and exit in markets, not sustainable growth and long term business. While I could be wrong about Howie, a similar program to work with Andy and Dan who were behind the Stomper launch are much more attractive. You could charge an upfront fee and share in the profit of the launch. You could build a framework of profit sharing depending on where the product lies and how much you’ll need to invest in mater of time and effort. During an actual operation, you’ll be able to teach, coach and provide accountability.
In any event, I wish you both the best and I truly look forward to the day our paths will cross again, I’m pretty sure it will.
@Scott Gallagher
are you saying like a “Launch your business” service?
Yep I can see that working.
BOTH as a group course, skill, and as a specific 1:1, perhaps as one of the class examples if permitted by the launchee.
Not just product launch, but “business” launch, which would include a stronger backbone in SEO (suits Dan) and product and marketing (upsell, cross selll, marketing aka Andy).
Not sure how it would be priced, but the idea seems ot fit.
Not so much look over my shoulder as let my shoulder do the walking
At $299 pe rmonth, for the group club version, I can see that would be very popular. Then supplemented iwth actual 1:1 projects, probably at $10K~$20K each deposit.
Rather than just “launch” it would probably be called PROPLE YOUR BUSINESS.
Seems a neat fit, and tehre is a club element o it which covers all of Dans/Andy’s skills.
nice
Peter
You are out of my league at this time however; even though you seem quite disappointed, look at how many new people you got for your list that will become paying customers perhaps for years to come.
Chock up the experience to unexpected lessons learned.
The idea of leting those interested choose the subjects for your training seems like a good one. Only one possible negative that I see and that is it might cause a lot of confusion.
Quit worrying about not getting the response expected and move on. You have a good mind and will come out ahead in the long run anyhow.
[...] This post was mentioned on Twitter by designyourlife, Chuck Taylor and Scott Buffaloe. Scott Buffaloe said: Marketing Test = FAIL… (The people have spoken) http://bit.ly/13sa0l [...]
Interesting how badly people seem to want something when they think you might take it away.
Ken
Hi Andy and Dan
First of all – thank you for showing and admitting you made a mistake. I am not the only who does.
What I admire is how you examine, explain and ask for feedback.
That shows respect and much more for your clients and readers.
A key question:
“Whats in it for me? What do I get from your program?
What value would I get from buying your product/s?
How can using your product help me become more successful?”
These are questions we all ask ourselves before buying something and you have addressed them well this time round.
I find that with my clients setting the bar too high freaks people out.
Six figures to them seems a dream too far away and they don’t believe they can achieve it. Many are small businesses struggling to pay their rent, mortgage and fighting to survive. So to them a six figure thing is so far out of their mind set it isn’t funny.
I think that having a tier thing such gold, bronze or silver as idea ok its no an original concept
may be of great benefit to many people. Me being one of them and my clients as well.
For most of us starting is an active leap of faith. If the bar is set to high, and we have not gotten good results before, we set ourselves up to fail.
Baby steps if you want to call it that. You watch a baby, watch all the attention and love they need to feed and grow. They need to be looked after, as they get bigger you still change their bottoms, and they learn t o become more independent. From crawling, falling over to running, there are so many times this happens and each time, after tears they get up and go again.
What on earth has this concept got to do with marketing? Everything actually.
No you don’t change diapers etc lol.
In marketing and growing it is baby steps for most of us starting out. You folks have been their yourselves. As you suggested, you changed tack and a mistake happened.
Life will go on, your product will get better and so on. You can help people learn to help themselves through learning valuable skills. Interacting with your clients is a great idea and I appreciate.
To say hey, I need your help, is not a sign of weakness, hell no.
Intelligent way to go – my opinion.
I work full-time from home is Australia, crazy 4 kids and husband, plus run and develop my businesses. Being moms taxi everyday living in the country as we do – life is never boring and very busy to say the least lol
Anyways that is my quick take – have to grab another coffee before I herd the kids down to the car and out the door.
All the best
Susan Connors
Australia
Hi Andy,
Straight up yo – I do not qualify for the original GT requirements and could not afford it. BUT, I was excited about it and the fact that SOMEDAY I would qualify, and that GT would hopefully be there to catapult my business to the next next level. I’m juiced to get to the point where I could join and thought anyone who’s already in the position now would be veddy fortunate to do so. I mean c’mon, having an intimate workover with you and Dan??? OVER THE TOP in no time. And to mastermind with others at the same high profit level or better, phuleese – no brainer. And the two in-person meet ups were priceless ingredients.
So, although I like and appreciate the more accessible level, I’m not as much interested. I already have TONS to do at my level with the stuff I get from Stompernet and Dan’s stuff. And although it is still you and Dan, I personally would have better results with a focused course (which I already have access to), instead of a subject-of-the-week course. “Focus” is my current mantra…oohmmm (hello, you’re in Cali now dude… welcome).
And to be honest, a new monster mind map every week would freak me out. The big ugly one was enough to make me gag up my Vanilla Camomile Tea (last time I read your email when I’m trying to enjoy a quiet evening…) I do love your mind maps. Honest, I do – they’re TOTALLY valuable. (And I liked the smiley faces too.)
I hope GT is available as originally conceived in the future – and that I can join at that time. I would give the pinky that sticks out when I sip my tea to be in it. As for now, whatever path GT/new GT takes – much (more) success to you and Dan!
Andy,
I have read your posts regarding why you left SN and if I can quote you “Happiness Audit = FAIL” What you are purposing here as public opinion is great and as long as you have thick skin you can determined what each target audience is asking for, their needs, and their wants. I felt a little downhearted to know that you stated you could not do both.
Finding the right niche determines your targeted audience!? As there are plenty of those for the GT $10K product (who can well afford to pay), and there are those that would struggle with the $200 monthly price. Do persons (starting out on the ground floor) really know what he/she needs, where to go to get it, and how to achieve it unless someone coached or taught them.
It comes down to: Happiness Audit = “Success”. Your new goal matches other person’s goals. What is true happiness? Can you put a price on it? Can’t it be affordable to everyone? Would you recommend the same step you took with SN ( so you could achieve some level of happiness)? Which group (discussed here) would make you happier in teaching? There is one thing that you can clearly state: You already been through this same scenario building StomperNet… where do you go from here? Where do you WANT to go from here?
There is something to be said about hard work and working hard with your hands. Building something from scratch can give you a sense of satisfaction. I applaud you. As you can tell, the majority of those wanting the GT product DO NOT want or need what you are REALLY WANT to offer. Nor are they interested in what makes you the HAPPIEST. They are in it for their own sake. There is nothing wrong with that and good for them.
I am here to tell you that there is a “niche” that you can fill. You can teach those persons, not quite at the GT level, perhaps on the ground floor, how to climb up. We would like your mindmaps, your videos, and your coaching.
1) I love the mindmaps and work with them myself. Great teaching tool when appropriately used.
2) I love the video idea, trying to build my own and can definitely see the vision.
3) “You call the shots” would work if the “SHOTS” persons were asking for were guaranteed on showing up on some future date. Voting can take precedent but should only account for the main topic, allowing sub-topics to be discussed. Goal is making sure everyone voting gets a say in “calling the shots”.
4) Record scheduled sessions so they can be made available to all, at any time.
5) One idea: Have persons work for their pay? This would allow someone who otherwise could not afford it, work for it. You would have extra pair of hands (to develop, design, annotate, file, maintain, etc.) and they would get an opportunity to learn. Win-win situation.
Sue B
“the majority of those wanting the GT product DO NOT want or need what you are REALLY WANT to offer. Nor are they interested in what makes you the HAPPIEST. They are in it for their own sake. There is nothing wrong with that and good for them.”
Sue makes a good point here, and it’s worth expanding on. There is not much offered at the GT level. As one of the people originally interested, I’ll agree there is a big “what’s in it for me?” factor – and I doubt I speak only for myself when I say we’re a particular bunch when it comes to who we trust & associate with – from leaders to fellow members.
Something like GT is specifically designed for ME to take MY business to the next level. Not just through your expertise and guidance, but by the group association as well.
That said, quirky as we are as a target market, we’re also go-getters and serious action-takers, which I am guessing is the type of group you like to work with.
6 months with a GT group could result in a lot of by-products you could offer at various levels, such as mind-maps and processes to share at lower price points.
I think the concepts are great, definitely gives people the way to get going at a more reasonable rate.
LOL – “UXPIC” was interesting… (and with a spelling error on the “P” when explained).
Definitely think its a great idea to have the choices that allow people to also go to live events OR not depending on their situation and desires… perhaps those who can’t attend the live events could at least get them recorded to listen to after the fact (even if you hold it back for a few months say for the lower levels?)
Not sure what your up to Jenkins
About meself, I think you talk a good story. Hey Dan. Your sitepoint SEO kit was my primer into SEO/SEM. Peripheral Stomper. Analyst by birth.
Best bit of data for me in the seminar was stomper “success’ stats. And yes, I loved the mind map, and Dan enough to overlook his fumble job at the 10 yard line.
My feedback is at first it sounded like you bombed, but by my calc youve got a half a dozen seats for GT. If I could be there I would, but Im still one of those peeps wondering if this is the year I bite beyond the net effect and join stomper. Seems like logical lines in the sand. Stompers faculty is missing you Andy, but there is lots of fresh blood in there, and they have got the Oatmeal crowd covered with the new offer. Im actually looking at launching my own information sites instead spending all my time making other peoples, and Im thinking the info in stomper is way better than the oatmeal offer your proposing. Hopefully in a few years, we can do a mastermind together. Well you know what I mean
Thanks for the open forum…. very cool to see how everybody is thinking and the different experiences.
John
Have no website. If this were for newbees within newbees. I’m all for it. I want to learn this but need to start clearing terminology.
At times the webinars are above my ‘ead.
Here’s a thought… since ya’ll will be creating this content in real time perhaps part of it could be you guys creating or finding a product/niche and showing us every step from nothing to bringing in the bucks.
At a stomper7 J West and D Bullock did this (kinda – they started before the conference and showed the success at S7)and it was awesome.
In your case members could watch every step first hand. Everyone’d learn something.